From sex to death – a mental mirror to the super rich

Manfred Kets de Vries is referred to as one of Europe`s leading management thinkers by renowned economic-business periodicals like The Financial Times or Wirtschaftswoche. Due to his approach combining management skills and psychoanalysis and his enjoyable style he is a most demanded management advisor in the world. He presented his book Sex, money, happiness and death at Ybl Club on 18 November, a world premiére – in Hungarian.

Q: Have you written a new scientific book on management? The sensational title could as well draw the attention of a wider audience.

A: My primary aim was again the same, to provide answers to questions concerning managers. While writing, I realized that these problems affect all of us, like the meaning of work, financial worries, the quest for happiness, taming the sexual desires, working up failures, and fear from death. Anyone may feel that the book is for him as well.

Q: The subtitle – Speculations from the Underground – refers to Dostoyevsky`s Notes From The Underground.

A: Dostoyevsky wrote a real psychological study on the things hiding in the deepest circles of human mind. His work points at the irrational nature of man. Jean-Paul Sartre called Dostoyevsky`s man living in the mouse-hole the forerunner of existentialism, who tosses between attractions and repulsions, his acts are driven by irrational emotions, and thus has the ability for noble and vile deeds at the same time. I also like to confront man his peccadilloes and stupidities.

Q: You are referred to as the management science guru. What is your view on this label?

A: I do not find it appropriate. I have three categories for those engaged with management science. The first is that of the “home scientists”, who prefer publishing in professional periodicals to satisfying practicing managers` real demands. The managers often turn to those in the second category, that of the “business bush doctors”, and, having been taken in, opt for miracle solutions like one-minute management. In contrast to those selling “snake fat”, I would like to belong to the group of people who can give intelligent advice to managers.

Q: What made you integrate the results of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy in your work?

A: The traditional studies on organisational and managerial behaviour focus more on systems than the people. However, I tried to reveal the below-the-surface, non-conscious factors in the background, and this is why I looked for answers in the field of psychiatry and psychotherapy, where practical questions cannot be avoided. Having studied these, the breath-taking perspectives of linking theory and practice opened up before my eyes.

Q: You are director of INSEAD Global Management Training Centre, but give lectures at Harvard Business School and the Montréal École des Hautes Études Commerciales as well. Your clients are from North America, Europe, Asia, and Africa, and they may well fill up the “100 most attractive employers” by Fortune magazine. What is the point in your work?

A: I try to help the managers unfold their skills. I escort them on their inner travels as a guide, and encourage them to develop their good skills, and face their limits. I am convinced that if the managers find the proper balance in life, it will have a beneficial effect on their organisation as well.

Q: We know that money cannot make you happy. In your book you state that it makes you unhappy. Are the rich really in such a trouble?

A: Someone who is super rich will soon become victim of the “wealth-apathy syndrome”. When unlimited money is available, he will descend into indifference and helplessness. He will feel excitement only when taking more and more risks, in financial and physical sense alike. Luxury holidays will be replaced by rock climbing and diving with sharks. For the super rich houses, yachts, cars and planes are like toys with which they play for five minutes, and then lose their interest in them. For the next excitement they will spend even more money. The whole spending is only an insane attempt to repress boredom and depression.

Q: But you must have some good advice on how to cure burnout…

A: Summing it up in three words, I would say credibility, altruism, and wisdom. I try to make my clients realize that it is not only money that counts, and that life is not only about power and social ranks. The latter is an uncertain things, popularity will fade away, and wealth is only superficial. People judge you primarily by your personal character. When we try to make others happy in a selfless manner, we will have good feelings, gain strength, and become revitalised. The real meaning of life is not what you get but what we become and what we give to others. Life is like looking in the mirror: what can be seen from the outside must reflect your inner world. We must opt for harmony between the inner and the outside worlds.

Q: How to start that?

A: Above the entrance of Apollo`s shrine in Delphoi the legend read: “Know yourself!” To be efficient and successful, one has to understand why we do certain things. Managers must also be able – beyond obtaining a real image of themselves and their organisation – to transmit this vision. The “merchants of hope” must stimulate their subordinates` imagination, and sketch up a dream in which all of them can believe, and that will strengthen their group identity.

Q: “Merchants of hope” – this label could go to politicians as well.

A: Exactly. Just think of Obama. He came as merchant of hope, and now is president of the United States. Difficulties for politicians will begin when, after a successful campaign, they have to be able to handle the expectations triggered by their own promises.

Q: Another rise and fall of a top manager – we may have had this idea when we heard the story of Kenneth Lay, CEO of Enron, which had long embodied the American dream. Why are so many executive careers ephemeral?

A: The phenomenon may be traced back to the paradoxon that accompanies every position like this. We all need heroes, but by backing their rise, we accelerate their fall. Like Alexander The Great, successful executives suffer from conceitedness, and after a while they will feel they are divine. You need some self-confidence to become a manager, but when you listen only to yourself, either because you are conceited or you do not trust those around, that is a problem. You will have “nodding Johns” around you, so that you never hear opposing opinions. The other source of sins is greed that blinds you.

Q: Many blame the bank and company managers` greed for the current crisis, especially that they, hoping for profit, took incalculable risks as well.

A: When it comes to greed, King Midas comes to my mind. As a result of the gift he asked Dionysus for, everything he touched became gold, including his food and his favourite daughter. Then he had to realize what misery greed had pushed him into. However, he was able to make amends for his mistake, restore everything, and thus regain happiness.

Q: What type of managers do you respect?

A: On the top of my list are the Finnish managers. Corporate culture in Finland emphasizes humbleness and equality. The latter results in a 360-degree feedback scheme, that enables information to get through all levels, back to the top. For humbleness, I could mention the example of former Nokia first man, Jorma Ollila. They produced wellington boots before they switched to mobile phones. However, humbleness will not make you a good manager. You need to be aware of the company`s micro and macro image, and combine visions with the ability to address minor practical issues. You need endurance and consequential approach, and must win your subordinates` respect. Above all, you must love your product, like Ferdinand Piëch at Volkswagen, who was that successful because he loved cars.

Q: You may have significant influence on the way of thinking of generations of top managers. Do you feel responsibility for how your students and clients perform?

A: My role has its limits. As the Chinese saying goes, “The teacher opens the door, but you decide whether to step beyond the threshold”. You may show good directions to the managers, but at the crucial moments they will have to make decisions. I do my best to give them right advice, but I cannot bear responsibility for the way they use this munition.

Q: Ours is the age of stress and hurry. Why cannot we live in a different way?

A: One of the tragedies of human existence is our restlessness: we grab the attractive chances, and when we achieved our aims, we get bored, only to start running for new desires. This hedonistic activity will never stop, as human demand is endless. Many are not courageous enough to take a look inside themselves. They are running away from knowing themselves, and cannot stop anymore. They lie to themelves that running itself is happiness. They are afraid that if they stop they will face the emptiness of their life. They waste their short life on useless things, while they forget that their non-presence at crucial moments may cause irreversible problems for their family and friends. You must stop and enlist what is valuable. They say that some coronary disease is the best thing that can happen to a middle-aged man, as in that situation he has the chance to think over his way of life, and after recovery he will begin enjoying everyday pleasures.

Q: Can you rely on your own recipes? Are you a happy and satisfied man?

A: Finding happiness is not like a train reaching a station. There is no destination, and there are always new stations ahead. Happiness is the journey itself. I try not to forget that. When I reach a goal, that will serve as a starting point for another journey. I try to enjoy every minute. Choosing a destination is not important, but the kind of me that will arrive there is.

Q: What forms of recreation do you opt for beyond your professional activity?

A: I am probably the biggest fan of hunting among management thinkers. In my spare time, I like to walk the rainforests, the savannahs in Africa, the tayga in Siberia, the Pamir Mountains, or the North Pole. My students also had the chance to experience my love of nature: when I hold a course at INSEAD, I often invite them for a walk in the nearby Fontainebleau forest, to discuss the unforeseeable bends of human behaviour there.